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[Ewe]

Bible Student 1....
    How else can we "make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine."?   Without mental fortitude such as yours, digging through the scriptures in order to actually make sure of all these things?
     If the digging reveals an unexpected truth, well then, it's only unexpected but has been confirmed to be truth.
     Personally, I thank you and other researchers like you on this site who have the mental clarity and determination to do this type of work.  I have neither the inclination (brain is still somewhat paralyzed    from years of WTS spoonfeeding) nor the time to devote to it, but I certainly am enjoying the fruits of your labor and am sharpening my own reasoning abilities by following threads such as this.
     Bouquets to all of you for your efforts... .... Ewe

[bible student 1]

Thank you Ann & Ewe.

Here is my dilema.
I strongly believe that 1Peter 4;17 is not prophetic,for the  reasons I brought out along with what I believe are supportive scriptures.
The same goes for a "judgment" beeing in effect ever since Christ spoke of it ( see the supporting scriptures posted earlier)
I am also convinced that when Christ comes back,those that will make up the "spiritual temple" will be found faithfull and hence free of having to be judged.
This I believe, harmonizes with Rev."the slaves of God will be marked in their forehead as approved prior to his arrival"
The dilema I have is that it appears that I am saying on the one hand that God's household was beeing judged in the first century and onwards and at the same time it appears that I am suggesting that God's household is beyond beeing judged because as I brought out,Hebrews 3;6 seems to indicate that one can only be part of the household of God providing (IF) they are faithfull.
To me it seems I am contradicting myself and I will need some time to sort it out.

I would really appreciate it if someone could sort this out for me.

Perhaps I am out to luch on all of this.Yet,the way the WBTS has used this scripture at 1Peter 4;17 and have used it to advance their own agenda in regards "we have been appointed over the belongings of Christ and hence listen to us and don't contradict us" obliges me to pursue the correct understanding of all this in the hopes that I can overturn their deeply disturbing doctrine.

[perimeno]

Here is my dilema.
I strongly believe that 1Peter 4;17 is not prophetic,for the  reasons I brought out along with what I believe are supportive scriptures.
The same goes for a "judgment" beeing in effect ever since Christ spoke of it ( see the supporting scriptures posted earlier)

I am also convinced that when Christ comes back,those that will make up the "spiritual temple" will be found faithfull and hence free of having to be judged.
This I believe, harmonizes with Rev."the slaves of God will be marked in their forehead as approved prior to his arrival"

The dilema I have is that it appears that I am saying on the one hand that God's household was beeing judged in the first century and onwards and at the same time it appears that I am suggesting that God's household is beyond beeing judged because as I brought out,Hebrews 3;6 seems to indicate that one can only be part of the household of God providing (IF) they are faithfull.

To me it seems I am contradicting myself and I will need some time to sort it out.

I would really appreciate it if someone could sort this out for me.

My dear brother bible student 1,

You say "on the one hand that God's household was beeing judged in the first century and onwards and at the same time it appears that [you are] suggesting that God's household is beyond beeing judged because as [you] brought out,Hebrews 3;6 seems to indicate that one can only be part of the household of God providing (IF) they are faithfull."


Maybe what Jesus said at Matthew 24:43-44 is pertinent to your point:
43 “But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account YOU too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.

And Matthew 25:13-30 continues,

13 “Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU know neither the day nor the hour.

This is in connection with the master summoning his slaves and committing to them his belongings, the talents to do business with. One receives five talents, another two, yet another one talent, "according to his own ability." After a long time the master returned to settle accounts with his slaves. Those who increased the master's belongings were rewarded. The one slave who hid the talent was told:

"26 ...Wicked and sluggish slave, you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow? 27 Well, then, you ought to have deposited my silver monies with the bankers, and on my arrival I would be receiving what is mine with interest.

28 “‘Therefore TAKE away the talent from him and give it to him that has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone that has, more will be given and he will have abundance; but as for him that does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 30 And throw the good-for-nothing slave out into the darkness outside. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be." -Matthew 25:26-30

It seems to me that when the master arrives unexpectedly and he settles accounts with his slaves that the "wicked" slave is still among the "faithful" slaves (vs. 21,23). Therefore the wicked and faithful slaves are still part of the master's household when they are judged together. The wicked, or good-for-nothing slave, is thrown "into the darkness outside," while the faithful slaves receive their reward. According to the order in which this is recorded in Matthew's account, this will take place before the Son of man gathers all the nations before him, Matthew 25:31-46.

Also, there would be no need for the slaves to "keep on the watch" if they had already been judged as faithful. Therefore, I believe what Jesus says about his coming unexpectedly to judge his slaves and what the apostle Peter says about the judgment starting with us, his slaves, God's household, compliments each other. Just because the WTS feels that they have already been judged (1918/19) and passed the test, does not void what the scriptures say about us having to keep on the watch, because our master is coming at a time we do not think it to be it.

33 Keep looking, keep awake, for YOU do not know when the appointed time is. 34 It is like a man traveling abroad that left his house and gave the authority to his slaves, to each one his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to keep on the watch. 35 Therefore keep on the watch, for YOU do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether late in the day or at midnight or at cockcrowing or early in the morning; 36 in order that when he arrives suddenly, he does not find YOU sleeping. 37 But what I say to YOU I say to all, Keep on the watch. - Mark 13:33-37

I don't believe that the master has already returned and judged the slaves of his house. We still need to keep awake, keep on the watch. And when he comes we will all be judged according to "[our] work."


love,
perimeno

[Dina]

Thank you Ann & Ewe.

Here is my dilema.
I strongly believe that 1Peter 4;17 is not prophetic,for the  reasons I brought out along with what I believe are supportive scriptures.
The same goes for a "judgment" beeing in effect ever since Christ spoke of it ( see the supporting scriptures posted earlier)
I am also convinced that when Christ comes back,those that will make up the "spiritual temple" will be found faithfull and hence free of having to be judged.
This I believe, harmonizes with Rev."the slaves of God will be marked in their forehead as approved prior to his arrival"
The dilema I have is that it appears that I am saying on the one hand that God's household was beeing judged in the first century and onwards and at the same time it appears that I am suggesting that God's household is beyond beeing judged because as I brought out,Hebrews 3;6 seems to indicate that one can only be part of the household of God providing (IF) they are faithfull.
To me it seems I am contradicting myself and I will need some time to sort it out.

I would really appreciate it if someone could sort this out for me.

Perhaps I am out to luch on all of this.Yet,the way the WBTS has used this scripture at 1Peter 4;17 and have used it to advance their own agenda in regards "we have been appointed over the belongings of Christ and hence listen to us and don't contradict us" obliges me to pursue the correct understanding of all this in the hopes that I can overturn their deeply disturbing doctrine.

Hi BibleStudent1,

I also don't see 1Peter 4:17 as prophetic.  But I also do not understand the word "judgment" for the House Of God in that scripture the same way you do.  The whole chapter deals with the "fiery trials" (vs 12) of Christians.  And even though they are going through all these trials consider yourselves blessed.  Now, I understand that when people see the word "judgment" it conjures up negative thoughts such as condemnation.  But it clearly doesn't mean that not only does the word judgment in that scripture mean a negative judgment (you can look it up in strongs) but the next vs drives home the point.  Peter quotes from the Septuagint translation Proverbs 11:31 it says ...

Proverbs 11
31 If the righteous receive their due on earth,
how much more the ungodly and the sinner!

Clearly, Peter is speaking of the righteous "House of God" and clearly this judgment does not mean condemnation rather it means a judgment of things that are good.  As the bible says we will all stand in judgment before the throne but we will not all stand condemned.  Some will be rewarded in their judgment by inheriting God's kingdom and some will be rewarded for their bad and be thrown out.

So, if Peter is speaking of the righteous (those following the gospel) as opposed to the unrighteous (those that don't follow the gospel) what obvious conclusion can we come to?  There is no contradiction where the bible states Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus ... there is a certain security of being in the Body of Christ.  Doesn't mean that you can't be "cut out" of the body of Christ ... Jesus said those not producing fruit would be cut out and thrown into the fire (Mt 3:10). But then once you've been thrown out your not in the body of Christ anymore.  

I firmly believe this scripture is speaking of judgment between two classes of people the righteous and the unrighteous.  One of a positive judgment the righteous who are going through fiery trials and being persecuted in the name of Christ as opposed to the unrighteous who are not following the gospel and rejecting Christ.  

Christian Love,
Dina

[bible student 1]

Thank you both,Perimeno and Dina.
You have both given me valuable information to meditate on.
Frankly,my brain is somewhat fried right now.
I will,soon though resume the analysis,since I am somewhat obsessed with this subject

[AnnOMaly]

Hi BS1


First of all I'd like to say that I agree with what you said about letting the Bible interpret itself. I too am skeptical when it comes to types/antitypes, minor and greater fulfillments that are beyond the scope of the Scriptures. Too much gets read into verses sometimes (sorry Jon).


I've been thinking about 1 Pet. 4:17.


Reply #25

d. Peter again draws a distinction between those who suffer according to the will of God and those who suffer otherwise; some of the suffering we experience is suffering God wants to take away, and He waits only for us to respond in faith

I picked up on this distinction too. It's curious that Peter said to the Christian congregation that they should not suffer as a murderer or thief. What a strange thing to say to Jehovah's people! Surely it would be taken as read they wouldn't murder or steal. It reminded me of what Paul said about submission to the authorities in Rom 13:4, "But if you [the Roman Christian] do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

Could it be a clue? If, according to 2 Cor. 5:10, the 'anointed,' those that are Christ's, are to appear before the judgment seat and receive what is due to them according to the things done in the body - good or bad, that would have to be in the first resurrection. However those who are raised first, Rev. says the second death has no authority over them. So what award would the 'bad' ones get? Or is it relatively 'bad'? King David remained the anointed king and in God's favor even though he committed some whopping sins... Hmmm.

Peri picked up on something intriguing - how the literal Greek reads. He quoted from the Kingdom Int. The Marshall's Int. has this:

"Because the time [?has come] to begin the judgment from the household of God"

That query '?has come' is interesting because when you leave that bit out to read ' Because the time to begin the judgment from ...' etc., in English it sounds like a verb, a tense is missing. It is totally ambiguous. 'The time to begin ...' was/is/to be when? It isn't clear.  

To me, the context suggests that Peter was applying it back then, by the exhortations he was giving to his fellow Christians. But I could be wrong.

Peri said
Reply #27

Matthew Henry, A. R. Fausset, and David Guzik, all of whom you quote as being authorities on what you are teaching, were also teaching the Trinity doctrine. Not that they are wrong in what they are saying regarding 1 Peter 4:17 because of teaching the Trinity, but if you don’t agree with what they say about John 1:1, then I wonder why you would use them as evidence that your understanding of 1 Peter 4:17 is correct, and yet reject what the WTS says. After all, if we look hard enough we will always find someone who will agree with us.

LOL!    Don't the Society do that ALL THE TIME? Pick out the parts that support their views and discarding the rest. Ah c'moooon! Nobody agrees on everything, but we all have insights that can aid us in our understanding - Trinity doctrine or no Trinity doctrine! "Not that they are wrong in what they are saying regarding 1 Peter 4:17 because of teaching the Trinity..." You said it, Peri!


BS1 said
Reply #30

What about the idea then that in the future there is going to be a clean-up of Jehovah's household

Could that still stand? What about Matt. 13:36-43? Are not the wheat and the weeds both representing Christians or professed Christians? Jonalfred said similarly.

I don't believe that 1918/19 could be the time when the wheat and the weeds were harvested. For a start, no weeds have been bundled and burnt yet (how long is a harvest supposed to be?). The other problem with that interpretation is that it would suggest that ALL JWs are wheat. Was Jesus illustrating organizations or individuals? If he was illustrating organizations, then we would have to ask whether the WTS have been wheat-like or weed-like. If he was meaning individuals, it is clear that there have been and continue to be some weeds within JWs. Either way, the WTS' interpretation doesn't work, imho.

Disjointed pieces, I know.   Hopefully it will spark you off in another direction.

[freyd]

9/11/05 - What will happen on the day of judgment?

http://www.christianquestions.net/