...saying that the resurrection has already occurred...

[jonalfred]

When we have to question whether or not a scripture should be in the Bible or not, are we not going to put at risk the faith we have that it is really God's Word?

Certainly not... but perhaps you have noticed that there has been some considerable hokie pokie played with the Scriptures... adding to or taking away... like John 1:1 for example.... there are many spurious texts that have proven to be only as old as the 8th or 9th century... such as 1 John 5:7...

I did err in surmising that this one was not in all of the oldest surviving texts,,, but or course we do not have the originals... as the above writer stated, this may be the only way we have of proving/disproving it... as to whether you buy into Bible Numerics, that will depend on if you study it out and have any faith in it....  Is Jehovah capable of creating such a fool proof protective device... surely He is... did HE?  that is another question.

To those interested in what was the discussion on this in the 1880's I submit some of Bro Russell's commentary on it.. he was not dogmatic that some were not raised... but that if they were they were raised as Lazarus was... from the sleep of death... but not the resurrection... as Lazarus later died again, and will arise in the resurrection later. Here is an excerpt from his comments from the Expanded Commentary of his work... The references refer mainly to Watch Tower Reprints  thus R1509 is page 1509 in those reprints which span from 1879 to December 1916...   F refers to "The New Creation", his sixth volume of Studies.... they are coded in this work a-f...

Matthew 27:52
And the graves -- There are serious reasons for doubting the genuineness of this verse and the following; but a portion of it, at least, appears in the oldest Greek manuscripts yet discovered. R1509:3, 2811:6
Of the saints -- Not the ancient worthies or the saints of the Gospel church. R2811:5, 833:2
Which slept arose -- The very most that could have taken place at that time would have been that some might have been awakened in just the same sense that Lazarus was awakened. Q289:2; R2811:5, 1509:6, 833:2

The word "sleep" used instead of the word "death." R2197:6

Matthew 27:53
Came out of the graves -- The narrative does not call it a resurrection; it merely says that they came out of their graves, as Lazarus did. R833:2
His resurrection -- The Greek word is not anastasis, but egersis, an unusual word for resurrection, signifying resurgence or re-animation. R1509:3; F703

Matthew 27:54
The centurion -- All three centurions mentioned in the New Testament (Luke 7:2; Acts 10:1) were reverential. R3755:4

Matthew 27:55
Ministering unto him -- Providing for the physical wants of Jesus and the twelve. Christ never solicited alms. F286

[AnnOMaly]

Ugh! A horribly inconvenient passage! #:[ Whether it was corpses or a real resurrection - it doesn't make sense either way!

I, like jonalfred, thought the clue might be in the Greek word used. Doesn't help. egiro is frequently used in the context of resurrection (although it's also frequently used in the ordinary sense of 'arise, lift up').

Rats. A puzzle.

In addition to Libby's (?) point about the Gnostics and that that may have been behind Paul's sharp words, Barnes says that Augustine wondered if the hoo-ha was over there being no 'literal' future resurrection - the resurrection was when one's soul was "recovered from the death of sin, and made to live anew."

[Libby]

Hi Ann,

Inconvenient is right!  8-]

If bodies arose and appeared in the city,  I would tend strongly toward resurrection as making the most sense. However, I don't think it would be the resurrection Paul was objecting to being preached by them other two fellers - on the other hand are we supposed to take the leap here and speculate that they had heard about this happening and decided the resurrection had already taken place because someone said bodies of holy ones arose and appeared in the city after Jesus' resurrection, but because Paul knew the holy ones hadn't been resurrected yet he objected to them teaching that it had and using this instance as proof?

Far afoot? Hey, I lost the reins a few sentences ago!   This buggy's careening wildly.  :-S

Love, Libby
ps to Jonalfred re: Bible Numerics, boy it sounds like a lot of people had way too much time on their hands!  *B*

[peacebaby]

[dated December 15, 2003]
  And Timothy - you're always asking us 'loaded' questions - what's the conclusion you've come to?
  In peace and love - peacebaby  *V*

 I'm waiting with bated breath...or is that 'bait-breath?. :-G...Anyhoo- Timothy, I'm still puzzled over these verses. All good teachers ask their students questions to which they [the teacher] already know the answer. Are their students able to reason out the right(?) answers for themselves? Sorry, dear teacher, but you've inherited a classroom full of dunce-caps! [I don't mean to speak for everyone - we dummies know who we are!    :-S 8-] ]
 I've encountered the same discussion going on at another site. They decided they would agree to disagree & left it hanging the same way we did.
 So spill it  
  With much philia........... peacebaby *V*